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FEDE Suggestions

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26 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Wed Mar 13, 2013 3:42 pm

Mercenary Lord


I thought you had to enter the code editor and set the loop points etc in terms of seconds. I had more of like a slider thing in mind.

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27 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Wed Mar 13, 2013 4:11 pm

Klokinator

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Oh a slider for loop points, yeah that's probably doable. However having a value you cvan set manually is also nice, so probably a combo of those two ideas.


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28 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 1:42 am

Klokinator

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So we're going for a dual screen mouse cursor using gameplay style for FEXNA. There's the top screen which uses normal buttons and stuff, and the bottom screen which uses the mouse to navigate. The resolution for the top is 320x192 and for the bottom 320x200 which makes 320x392 total game window size, which can be increased via zoom function.



This is the lower section of the screen. I'm not gonna explain anything here, I want blind opinions of what people think everything does at a glance. What do you think each icon means? Is there any glaring errors you notice?

The "Battle Stats" text will be replaced later, and we have a few smaller details to touch up too, but that can wait till tomorrow. All credit for this goes to char, what a wonderful person having to put up with me xD

Also, same goes for this image, made by Boo.



Opinions for both of them would be awesome.


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29 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 5:57 am

Warg

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Both look awesome, I prefer the second thought. What made me like it more was the place where afinity is and that space after the weapons for puting the icon of what they are effective against. Although that "map" icon could go to the same place it is in in the first one.

30 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 6:23 pm

Klokinator

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I'll keep that in mind. Any other thoughts?


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31 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 7:25 pm

Markyjoe1990

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A'ight, so...

I think the goal for the stat screen is to show as much information as possible. It should be as efficient as possible so that the player can access the desired information as quickly as possible.

That said, the second screenshot looks superior, but it could still use some improvements. For one, the skills section isn't labeled, so it wouldn't be clear to some player as to what it means at first glance. Also, since I assume we're going for maximum flexibility in this engine, I feel CON should be in with the other stats, as BUILD or BLD. Obviously I'm also implying it should be a stat that can grow. Same with movement, even though most people probably won't use it. =X

Also, I feel there should an indication that the unit is on some kind of terrain, and what the terrain does for the unit. It's clear by the picture that Uther has 20 more avoid than his stats imply, which means he could be on a tree or a fort, but I have no way of knowing from the stat screen alone.

Also, the weapon mastery section isn't labeled, nor is Uther's weakness (Which is armor).

Speaking of weaknesses, since people will probably make weapons built to fight specific classes (Magic users seems to be a common one for hacks), and since some weapons may be given a large amount of effectiveness towards many classes, I think there needs to be a way to show that on the stat screen without cluttering it. Maybe class-specific icons too, or something like that.

Also, since we're probably putting in every mechanic from every fire emblem game, even the useless ones, there needs to be a section for biorhythm. Though, I certainly wouldn't care if this idea was shirked. Seriously, biorhythm is the most pointless thing ever.

That's all I have so far for the stat screen.

For other suggestions... I guess just make the engine as fast and efficient as possible. Make the controls simple, but able to cover most things a player would want to do (Example: L button shifts between ally or enemy units, like in FE13).

I also have ideas for terrain. Like... maybe some terrain doesn't give defense/res/HP, but can also give attack bonus or change certain rules of the game, like the weapon triangle.

Let's see... what else... I guess for the creation process, we'd want to give the player as much flexibility as possible, while also giving them a simple, easy to use interface. I personally like the way eventing is handled in FE hacking, except that it's extremely unintuitive. A tool like Cedar's eventing tool really does wonders with making it easy, and being able to manually edit the eventing is nice.

I also think the map creation tool should be merged with the eventing tool, and maybe the nightmare editor too... basically everything should be, like, combined into a single tool, and the author should be able to switch between them via the use of tabs and stuff.

I'm running out of stuff to say, so I'll stop here.

Oh yeah, and give the author access to every mechanic in the series ever, and make them possible to disable.

OH! Capturing could either be a skill or a general mechanics. Make this toggle-able or something.

32 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:29 pm

Klokinator

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Argh was typing and accidentally deleted my post FML.

I think the goal for the stat screen is to show as much information as possible. It should be as efficient as possible so that the player can access the desired information as quickly as possible.
Pretty much.

That said, the second screenshot looks superior, but it could still use some improvements. For one, the skills section isn't labeled, so it wouldn't be clear to some player as to what it means at first glance. Also, since I assume we're going for maximum flexibility in this engine, I feel CON should be in with the other stats, as BUILD or BLD. Obviously I'm also implying it should be a stat that can grow. Same with movement, even though most people probably won't use it. =X
The top one is what I'm planning to use, with modifications borrowed from the bottom as the bottom is very different from what I'm planning to include. That being said...

The Build stat can be obfuscated by a developer more easily with the display as it is now than if it were on the bottom with the other stats, and there's also the issue of space. Since capturing/rescuing/weapon weight are toggleable or removable in some way, I wanted to make sure there wouldn't be this ugly empty spot where Build used to be if a developer chooses to remove it.

OH! Capturing could either be a skill or a general mechanics. Make this toggle-able or something.
We're planning to have Capture, weapon weight, and rescuing changeable, toggleable, or removable in some way. For the new Build system, this is what I'm aiming for:

Pegasi: 20 AID always.
Wyverns: 18 AID always.
Riders: 15 AID always.
Normal: (CON - 1 = AID) always.

When capturing, your stats will halve themselves therefore capturing is very difficult without a brave weapon or critical weapon to hope for an OHKO, and even though Pegasi can capture mostly anything, their weak stats mean the target needs to be greatly weakened prior to the attack.

As for weapons, I have a lot of extensive rebalances planned, one of which is...

Javelins: 20 WGT, +7 SPD at melee range.
Handaxes: 22 WGT, +7 SPD at melee range.

This lets people use the ranged weapons at range with a massive slowdown, but also lets them use the weapons at melee attack range like a normal weapon would be used, giving them utility but still allowing bow users to be the superior ranged unit. If someone wanted to obfuscate this system, disabling the effect of Build would be a solid start and then they're back to the classic "hand axes rape everything" system.

Also, the weapon mastery section isn't labeled, nor is Uther's weakness (Which is armor).

Speaking of weaknesses, since people will probably make weapons built to fight specific classes (Magic users seems to be a common one for hacks), and since some weapons may be given a large amount of effectiveness towards many classes, I think there needs to be a way to show that on the stat screen without cluttering it. Maybe class-specific icons too, or something like that.
Where you see the boot icon and the "ii"/shield icon in the first screenshot is where the movement and class effectiveness types for a unit will go. As for showing a weapon's effectiveness, I'm leaning towards a total revamp of weapon descriptions when you use the R button on them/click on them to see their stats.

Also the icons will be replaced in time with custom ones so that their purpose is more clear.

Also, since we're probably putting in every mechanic from every fire emblem game, even the useless ones, there needs to be a section for biorhythm. Though, I certainly wouldn't care if this idea was shirked. Seriously, biorhythm is the most pointless thing ever.
Where you see the Heart in the first screenshot, if you click that it takes you to a combination of the FEA style supports (infinite supports essentially) the biorhythm screen, and a place where modifier stats are displayed, like maybe how forts give a bonus to defense or whatever then that could be displayed there.

(Example: L button shifts between ally or enemy units, like in FE13).
Yeah I want that too, it's a nice FEAture (c wut i did thar?)

Let's see... what else... I guess for the creation process, we'd want to give the player as much flexibility as possible, while also giving them a simple, easy to use interface. I personally like the way eventing is handled in FE hacking, except that it's extremely unintuitive. A tool like Cedar's eventing tool really does wonders with making it easy, and being able to manually edit the eventing is nice.

I also think the map creation tool should be merged with the eventing tool, and maybe the nightmare editor too... basically everything should be, like, combined into a single tool, and the author should be able to switch between them via the use of tabs and stuff.
Already planned Very Happy


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33 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:37 pm

Mercenary Lord

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So this is definitely a thing, then?

I might have to start making generic classes to give people some cool but practical variety. Maybe.

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34 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:54 pm

Markyjoe1990

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Yo, why not just lower the weight of javelins at melee range? Or do it the FE13 way; decent hit, no weight, and extremely low attack?

35 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:56 pm

Klokinator

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I'd do that, but there's no real intuitive way to do that to a hardcoded stat, and boosting speed by 7 at melee range is easier to add in the weapon description.

"Speed increases by 7 at melee range"


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36 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 8:58 pm

Markyjoe1990

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Why not go with my second suggestion then? Do it the FE13 way. The speed +7 fix seems really hackneyed.

37 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:00 pm

Charlotte

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Chick
Keep in mind Klok is probably the only one who's doing that and half his other balance ideas, aise from maybe some "sample weapons" in the engine. But I think for the engine itself, we'll have defaults set like FE7. There's no good reason not to.

And yeah I'll get to taking some of Boo's things... Later. Can't do much today or tomorrow :V

38 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:02 pm

Markyjoe1990

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There's a perfectly good reason not to default things to the way FE7 did it. Namely because FE7 didn't balance things really well.

But... eh... If people don't like it, they'll probably just change it, so ultimately this doesn't matter. So long as a +7 speed thing doesn't get imposed on my javelins with no way to disable it, I guess I have no reason to complain.

39 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 9:32 pm

Klokinator

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Oh right, yeah weapon balances are revertable obviously. Heck it's just a matter of assigning a condition based skill via a single number so anyone could undo it if they wanted to.


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40 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:11 pm

Klokinator

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Revisions! Let's call this a hybridic best of the previous two! The icons beside the weapon are placeholders for either effective weaponry or possibly for skills the weapon has (and in that case the effectiveness will be in the revised weapon descriptions).

Affinity was removed because it will be important for supports and therefore be a part of the Supports screen UI.

I'm saying "fuck biorhythm" and not including it, if someone wants it that badly they can add it themselves :B

And now the two icons at the top show the unit movement type and class type, therefore showing what weapons (if any) are effective against it. I'm planning on having...

http://gyazo.com/d1bad7ba16988639cfb048176b0a8274

All of those will need 16x16 icons custom made. Yay.

Any comments?


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41 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:17 pm

Markyjoe1990

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I just realized we're only allowed five skills per unit. And the weapon mastery space indicates that onlt 5 weapons types total can be used.

HOW LIMITING

Also, putting weapon effectiveness in the description is inefficient.

Negative penguin/10

Yeah, I'm kinda just... If I were to design this screen, I'd design it to "prepare" for the most clutter, like a weapon that's effective against everything, having 9 skills, etc.

I know it's ridiculous to prepare for these kind of things, but that's just how I'd design it.

42 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:20 pm

Mercenary Lord

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It looks sharp. Like the FEGBA stat screens dialed up to eleven.

This is the...bottom screen? What would be on the other one? I'm too lazy to go look at it. Maybe you could move some stuff to the other screen so you can be nice to MJ and fit in all this crazy-ass preppin'.

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43 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:22 pm

Markyjoe1990

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I want Rightful God, Aether, Rally Love, Gale Force, Armshift, Axe Breaker, Lance Breaker, Sword Breaker, Bow Breaker, Sword Breaker, Discipline, Aptitude, Paragon, etc. etc.

And all of these skills will be equipped to a level 2 enemy archer.

It will be glorious.

44 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:28 pm

Klokinator

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5 skills is actually quite overkill. By default I'm allowing for the max a person would need that's allowed in most games, and if they want more they can program that themselves. Even with reclassing in FEA, 5 skills is pretty overpowered (unless you choose shitty skills) and you could always redesign it to have 12 10x10 icons instead in a multihexagonal pathway. I'm designing for those that are serious about making a game and allowing for them to make a game that seriously takes from the best elements in any FE game to date and merge them seamlessly, by default.

If someone wants to make an overpowered overcluttered mess, they can do that themselves.

I just realized we're only allowed five skills per unit. And the weapon mastery space indicates that onlt 5 weapons types total can be used.
With anima merged into one weapon type with an internal magic trinity of its own, that leaves 4 for magic and 4 for weapons. Even FEGBA nergal/athos can fit their weapon ranks in here with room for one to spare. You can also shrink them or expand the window for cpace manually if you want, but there's no way I'm increasing the window size beyond 320x200 for the bottom by default, period, end of story. Doing that breaks the zoom feature and it could potentially break the code in various unforseen as-of-now ways.

This is the...bottom screen? What would be on the other one? I'm too lazy to go look at it. Maybe you could move some stuff to the other screen so you can be nice to MJ and fit in all this crazy-ass preppin'.
Top screen is for units on the map, battles, the "guide" (Like the FEA guide or the FE8 guide that tells you how mechanics work) and stuff of that sort. Bottom is for the unit info, supports, and chapter data, essentially. I'll get a dual screen mockup eventually, have no fear.


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45 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:29 pm

Klokinator

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I want Rightful God, Aether, Rally Love, Gale Force, Armshift, Axe Breaker, Lance Breaker, Sword Breaker, Bow Breaker, Sword Breaker, Discipline, Aptitude, Paragon, etc. etc.

And all of these skills will be equipped to a level 2 enemy archer.

It will be glorious.
You can actually do that in FEXP/FEXNA, but it just won't display and they'll be invisible. You could also move skills to the supports screen and make room there if need be but I'm not doing that by default :B


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46 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:36 pm

Mercenary Lord

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Oh, so you'd never have to like push the R button to view stats and stuff? Neato.

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47 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:51 pm

Klokinator

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I also plan to have a screen flip function where you can have battles 'n shit on the bottom and the stats screen on top. Would actually be shockingly easy to do Very Happy


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48 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:56 pm

Charlotte

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Chick
Klokinator wrote:Would actually be shockingly easy to do Very Happy
And you know this because...?

Also it's worth noting the class type icons are 12x12 by default. But really anything can be changed. This is just the base.

49 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Wed Mar 20, 2013 2:46 pm

Klokinator

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All you'd be doing is swapping the two windows, and each would be programmed to be seperate from the other so I'm fairly certain it's easily doable.


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50 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:00 am

Mew

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Chick
i don't know if it's that simple though, everything within those windows would have coordinates/placement though so putting them in disarray by moving the entire area they're inhabiting wouldn't be that quick? you'd also have to reorder the way you move through the menu items :<

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51 Re: FEDE Suggestions on Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:59 pm

Klokinator

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Well what I mean is that we program two windows independant of each other, then make it so by toggling a switch you can rotate the two window's positions. The coordinates inside each individual window would remain the same though, y'see?


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